Curse

Stone · Jun 03, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

personally i dun care as long as the diffulculty to add skills in Pve or Pvp remains equal..

Ive used pvp up until now to find out which build i wanted to work at, nnow ive finally got my "main" to lvl17 , it would be quite annoying to be owned in lions arc by som1 playing for 2mins.. not to mention how ill feel if im lvl20 ;p

im kinda still quite confused at why they even have a Pvp area as from 0-20 is where you would learn the skills & etiquetes to trully appreciate & be involved in Pvp & earn the hall things, but hey i guess theres a reason for everything, i just get annoyed when i want to battle atm & only place for it now for me is in lions arch , & apon being gangraped by 4 lvl 20's they shout "noob" .. lol ..anywayzz im sure gw staff know what theyre doing.. theyve done fine so far

Goonter · Jun 03, 2005, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Create an auction house that both pve and pvp created characters can warp too. The pvp matchs could reward wins and kills with money. As pve characters unlock items and want to sell them off, the pvp characters can go and see whats on the market and buy them.

Have a trainers ground that both pve and pvp created characters can warp too. There skill trainers can have all of the availble skills for every class. But of course, you pay gold and a skill point for it. Pvpers can earn exp points in matchs. Let them use it. Pve'ers have the added bonus to do quest for some skills and not having to buy them. (Although I think Ive noticed pvp created characters having a number of defaultly unlock skills too.)

I know this ideas are old. But they do seem like reasonable solutions, benefiting the game, and not hurting or destroying anything.

Corwin_Andros · Jun 03, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

It probably would be best to keep the "PvP Only" and the "PvP thru PvE" characters seperated until after ascension.

I think the whole arena idea for the lower levels is to give PvE people some exposure to PvP without having to try it at the highest levels.

Like Stone said though it does get discouraging to get to LA and get yourself gangraped by a band of LvL 20's when you are lucky to be lvl 10 or 15.

I personally don't expect much out of those arenas partly because of that.. On the other hand I've given lvl 20's a pretty rough time with a lvl 17 or 18 character. Part of that was learning from past experience and just knowing how to play the game better than I used to.

AirOnG · Jun 03, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Here's the tennis analogy to guild wars. You start out with a plastic racquet 10cm in diameter and no shoes or sun visor. In order to be allowed to play with a racquet with larger diameters and be able to wear shoes and visors, you have to mow the golf course for dozens of hours before you can unlock things. Sure, you can defeat other players if you're good enough and enjoy yourself. If you can defeat others with the disadvantage of not having mowed the grass, this must mean the game is on a level playing field and there is no problem.

Of course, this sounds absurd. The grinding mechanic in Guild Wars in the same way is very absurd for competitive play if you give it thought.

The Virago · Jun 03, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Here's the tennis analogy to guild wars. You start out with a racquet 10cm in diameter and no shoes or sun visor. In order to be allowed to play with a racquet with larger diameters and be able to wear shoes and visors, you have to mow the golf course for dozens of hours before you can unlock things. Sure, you can defeat other players if you're good enough. If you can defeat others with the disadvantage of not having mowed the grass, this must mean the game is on a level playing field and there is no problem.

Of course, this sounds absurd. The grinding mechanic in Guild Wars in the same way is very absurd for competitive play if you give it thought.

Here's a tennis analogy for you:

You show up at the Tennis Court and you want to play. The folks who own the court say, 'Ok, we'll let you play but before you do, you have to mow the grass.'

You look around and there's 1,000 acres of grass to mow.

You have a choice -- mow the grass then play, or go somewhere to play.

Instead of choosing, you go to the local pub and plaster complaints about the tennis club on the walls.

Yeah, that's really gonna make a difference.

AirOnG · Jun 03, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

But how about if you really like tennis and that's the only tennis court for miles around? :)

Guild Wars PvP has unique gameplay, and I enjoy it.

Also, you do actually realize how truly large 1000 acres of grass is? That'd truly be a grind before you get to do what you want.

Hell Marauder · Jun 03, 2005, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Hey guys, stop arguing for a moment. Someone at gwonline.net actually put up an *interesting* story explaining origin of this problem, check it out. Here is a link:

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthrea...3&page=3&pp=10

It's a story by uzor.

The Virago · Jun 03, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

But how about if you really like tennis and that's the only tennis court for miles around?

Guild Wars PvP has unique gameplay, and I enjoy it.

Also, you do actually realize how truly large 1000 acres of grass is? That'd truly be a grind before you get to do what you want.

Then suck it up and get to mowing or change your mind and find something else to do.

And yes, I know precisely how large 1000 acres is... that's why you rent tractors and even then, it's an all day job. It made the point.... that point being the problem isn't that the club has a requirement, it is that if you don't want to meet it, you don't have to.... but the choice to meet it or not is YOURS to make.

Get it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by history from the link posted above

These people weren't interested in the RP portion, just wanted to get into the PvP arena. They, however, were at a distinct disadvantage, as their premades had only a static 8 skills, and the RP lvl 20's had a hundred or so skills to choose from. This isn't exactly what AN had wanted PvP to turn into, but being the cool cats they are, when their fan abse asked for more features, they added more features. They said "Ok, from now on, any skill or item you get in the RP game, you will be able to use in the PvP game on your prebuilds." That will help out those that aren't as in to the Role Playing aspect of the Role Playing Game, while still being fair to those that are. Again, more new people came. They said --<bias deleted>-- because they didn't want to have to put any time into the RP game and still have all the benefits that the original players have.

This is a bit embellished, maybe, but you can see where things came from, and how they came to be as they are now. What people need to keep in mind is that 1) you can never please everyone. and 2) AN has done an AMAZING job trying to please as many people as possible, while still staying true to the roots they created 3 paragraphs ago. There is no doubt in my mind that the PvP aspect of GuildWars will continue to evolve and try to embrace more people. But bringing in new people is not worthwhile if you alienate the people that are here already, which is why AN has needed to and continues to tread carefully when evolving the game.

Perfect example of giving someone an inch and having them expect several more miles.

Frutron · Jun 03, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

Then suck it up and get to mowing or change your mind and find something else to do.

And yes, I know precisely how large 1000 acres is... that's why you rent tractors and even then, it's an all day job. It made the point.... that point being the problem isn't that the club has a requirement, it is that if you don't want to meet it, you don't have to.... but the choice to meet it or not is YOURS to make.

Get it?

We are in agreement here, Virago. There are so many choices in the fantasy MMORPG realm, complaining about GW is sorta like begging for abuse. GW is clearly a new kind of game. Perhaps people feel cheated because they didn't read the scads and scads of media coverage/previews/reviews or didn't play in the Beta events which were 1. free and 2. available to all and so when they bought it they thought, "I can expect exactly what I got with EQ/EQ2/DAoC/WoW/AC1/AC2/SB/RfTME/ORFotA/FFXI, only with prettier graphics and no monthly fee. Oh joy!" I mean, I really feel sorry for those guys.

Hey, if you don't like GW, you should really try ORFotA. Plus I think it's still in free beta. Give it a whirl.

-F

Saerden · Jun 03, 2005, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

Here's a tennis analogy for you:

You show up at the Tennis Court and you want to play. The folks who own the court say, 'Ok, we'll let you play but before you do, you have to mow the grass.'

You look around and there's 1,000 acres of grass to mow.

You have a choice -- mow the grass then play, or go somewhere to play.

Instead of choosing, you go to the local pub and plaster complaints about the tennis club on the walls.

Yeah, that's really gonna make a difference.

Did you know that the first Guild Wars was designed to be a perfect online world where none suffered and where everyone will be happy. It was a desaster - no one accepted the program, entire crops were lost. I believe that as a species online players define their reality through misery and suffering. So the perfect world was a dream that your primitive brains kept trying to wake up from, which is why Guild Wars was re-designed to this - the peak of your MMOPRG civilisation.

AirOnG · Jun 03, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Made me smirk, Saerden ^^

Frutron, almost all of those choices in the fantasy MMORPG genre emphasize a great deal of grind almost completely over skill. Guild Wars is somewhat attempting to break the Everquest mentality so many have where the game has to be a chore before you can have fun.

Jackell · Jun 03, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I know I said I was done with this, but Virago, your bull headedness and unwillingness to listen to anyone that doesn't agree with you 100% has brought me back in.

First of all, Anet does check out these boards and these discusions, that's part of what Gaille Grey does. Secondly, Guild Wras is aware of this situation and is trying to figure something out. So yes, in your analogy, writing on the pub walls will do something.

Tell me Virago, why are you so unwilling to meet anyone in this? Why are you so diehard that the people have to deal with this, instead of thinking "Well, maybe a few things could change to give other people what they want?" Personally, it sounds like you've descended into the rank where your only arguing because you like to argue. One who likes to hear their own voice, persay, because you flat out refuse to listen to anyone? Why are you so set for "deal with it" instead of possibly improve it?

NiknudStunod · Jun 03, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

The problem is, again, others dont find it boring.

Same answer for you. Another tennis player enjoys earning additional equipment to play during the course of playing. And the system is set that way. Isnt it sort of selfish to want to change the system and take the fun from the other tennis player? And who has more of a 'right' to enjoy themselves, you or the other player?

Yep, I realize these examples are getting sorta silly. :P

Just because they can earn additional equipment doesn't mean people can't start with the same equipment. I think it is selfish that the pve players want to force me to pve in order to compete in pvp. I would not tell people out there who are strictly pve players that in order for them to advance in there story they have to hold the hall of heroes for 5 or more matches. This game in reality is 2 seperate games. There is a roleplaying content driven game with a story to follow as you progress. There is also a PvP part that is almost completely seperate from the pve.

You're calling me selfish? All i want is a equal playing ground in the pvp part of the game for everyone. It is the pve grinders that are saying they deserve a advantage in a game that was advertised as "skill over time spent", because they didn't mind spending 200 hours grinding for skills and runes. I went through the game once. I have a level 20 War/mes that has accended. I refuse to go back and grind for skills and runes just so I can compete with the best like I did during BWE. I don't think I am selfish at all.

Saerden · Jun 03, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

Just because they can earn additional equipment doesn't mean people can't start with the same equipment. I think it is selfish that the pve players want to force me to pve in order to compete in pvp. I would not tell people out there who are strictly pve players that in order for them to advance in there story they have to hold the hall of heroes for 5 or more matches. This game in reality is 2 seperate games. There is a roleplaying content driven game with a story to follow as you progress. There is also a PvP part that is almost completely seperate from the pve.

You're calling me selfish? All i want is a equal playing ground in the pvp part of the game for everyone. It is the pve grinders that are saying they deserve a advantage in a game that was advertised as "skill over time spent", because they didn't mind spending 200 hours grinding for skills and runes. I went through the game once. I have a level 20 War/mes that has accended. I refuse to go back and grind for skills and runes just so I can compete with the best like I did during BWE. I don't think I am selfish at all.

[If you read guild hall forums, youll recognize some of my "witty replies"]

There is no grind in Guild Wars. You have to realize its an revolution. You can compete from the start, since everyone is equal. But some are more equal then others.

PieXags · Jun 03, 2005, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Hahaha, now that gave me a good laugh, Saerden. The forums need more humor of this sort to break the bigheadedness of some conversations in threads like this.

Now, I don't really *enjoy* replying to threads like this, but I'm bored as hell and I just woke up, so for the love of God bear with me.

Ok, here we go.

Ready?

...sure?

Alright then.

PvE peoples like to play PvE.

PvP peoples like to play PvP.

Some people like to play both.

Some people like to THINK they like one or the other, but they spend all their time here on the forums complaining and/or watching everyone else complain. (I don't fit in either one of these groups...trust me.

)

PvP people want a level playing field, all hands down, lets do this thing. After all, what fun is being competitive if you're trying to fight people with better stuff than you?

And doesn't it suck that you have to go through PvE for several hours to unlock the stuff?

Yeah, it does.

But then, what must we do? UAS won't ever get implemented into the game, because then people who play both PvE and PvP kinda feel cheated when they bring their PvE character, who they've enjoyed for so long, well...they feel like they did the work for nothing, even though they enjoyed it for the most part all the way up to PvP, they still would like a little perk. This makes sense 'eh? Sure it does.

PvP people are like "Man...give us the stuff 'eh? Or at least make it easier. We don't mind workin' a little bit, we just don't want to have to spend several hundred hours combined with different characters to unlock all the wicked neato skills that are out there."

So.

What do we do?

I'll tell you what we do.

We get drinks.

And we pray.

Cheers.

sama · Jun 04, 2005, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

So.

What do we do?

I'll tell you what we do.

We get drinks.

And we pray.

Cheers.

lol. AMEN.

the only why i still play guild wars is because i have an awesome bunch of ppl in my guild and on our vent server.

Goonter · Jun 04, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Would it be to impractical for pvp created characters to play only with with other pvp created characters? And then pve characters would only play against pve characters?

I really dont know, Im asking honestly.

If its so possable, then I dont see why not just give pvpers everything in a basket. They are all on the same lvl field.

The pve'ers will still have the best of thier world and the pvp aspect of thier world.

Jackell · Jun 04, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

It would be impractical. First, splitting the communities opens new servers, and the cost of operating the game goes up.

Secondly, as both a pve'er and pvp'er, I don't want to have to pick a side. I want to bring a pve up all the way, make him grow, then try him out with what I have and go against the best, whether the best is on the pve ladder or the pvp ladder.

Thirdly, is the learning curve aspect that I firmly beleive this game needs for 90% of the new players, that I've discussed why several times. The curve only needs to be a few days, a week at most, but you do need it, or else a lot of players won't experiment, won't learn, and pvp will suffer for it.

Goonter · Jun 04, 2005, 03:24 AM // 03:24

If your going to go up against the best it would be those characters that where made in pve to play pvp. The pvp created characters dont have all the skills or equiment available to experiment with them that a pve created character would have.

At the same time, if given this priviledge, the pvp created characters would have an instant upper hand against pve'rs that like to pvp.

I think a lot of ideas here offer a good solution to that.

Yet still...Is there a solution for UAS? A real solution that can help to benift both types of players?

Maybe add a crap lode of new pvp created templates?

Jackell · Jun 04, 2005, 05:24 AM // 05:24

I'm still a fan of what the idea I posted on the first page. Yeah, bit could be exploited, but with it only taking a week to get all the unlocks and whatever (a week for my suggestion), it's not really a big deal.